Relationships and Finances: Please Give A Reader Advice!
Posted on October 31, 2008 by Him and tagged advice, finances, financial infidelity, relationship
If there's something I love about you, our dear readers, it is that you always give solid advice (even if we don't agree with it). I once again ask for your wise words to help out another reader. He writes:
Before we got married, I asked my wife how much debt she had. She was very vague, but after some push and pull I got a rough number of "about $15K," not counting her student loans and car loan. That was quite a bit compared to the nearly zero debt I aim to maintain. But I figured that probably wasn't too extreme since the two of us make over $50K/year in salary each.
Well fast forward to after the wedding and move to a new city for both of us. It took her a while to find a job in the new city, but she did find an entry level position just to have SOMETHING. A few months working there and she finally found a job in her chosen field making about the same as what she made before we moved.
During this time, she kept asking me for money to help pay her bills. I lovingly helped her because I see the marriage as a joint venture. What affects her affects me. She's been working at this higher paying job now for about 5 months and she's still asking me for money.
After the attempted calm and rational conversation escalated to a LOT of pushing and pulling, and then to a full on screaming from her direction, I FINALLY discovered the truth. Counting her student loan and car loan and ALL of her credit cards, she has almost $100K of debt! Her MINIMUM monthly payments on her credit cards alone are more than $1,000/month. All 5 of her credit cards are maxed out. Her paychecks go toward minimum payments and then whatever she has left over go toward frivolous purchases like knick-knacks, new shoes, clothes, and purses.
She doesn't see anything wrong with what she's doing not only to herself but to me and US! I've tried taking her credit cards away from her and sitting down with her to talk budget but she absolutely refuses. Now we are losing money left and right. We can still pay the bills, but BARELY. I've had to dip into my savings and I also had to use all of the inheritance I got from my late mother just to stay afloat. Her only reason for not talking with me is "my parents fought about money and that's why they divorced." I would think NOT talking about money is worse than arguing about it.
I've been making all the payments on the mortgage and utilities. She hasn't contributed toward them at all because she can't afford to. If I had known the extent of her debt, I never would have bought this house. I've been looking at debt consolidation and even bankruptcy and other means of trying to lower her monthly payments but everything I've seen says we have to fall behind in those payments and not be able to even make the minimum payments before any of that will even apply to us.
Do you have any advice for me? I've tried getting her to talk to me or even a financial planner but the financial planner seminar that is coming to town that she did agree to go to isn't for another 6 months. We will be flat broke by then.
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dia | Oct 31, 2008
Divorce. She has no interest in changing whatsoever. The longer he sticks around the worse off he's going to be.
strange bird | Oct 31, 2008
Good luck. I can't really imagine how you got into this situation, though. I wouldn't have even considered buying a house with somebody whose finances I wasn't completely familiar with. But given that it's too late for that, this is still a tough one. You absolutely need her to change, really, but if she doesn't want to, you certainly can't force her. So if she doesn't see that she's doing anything wrong, I don't think you can make this work.
Yeah, I'd try marital counseling. This is not just money, it is trust and faith as well. Ask your company's HR to see if there is an employee benefit on counseling - my company offers a free 3rd party counseling on personal matters 5 times a year. I'm considering doing it because my fiance has some debts and I am concerned about it...
Melissa | Oct 31, 2008
I'd prioritize couples counseling before the financial seminar comes into town, the issues here aren't just about her spending, but about the ability to communicate as a couple and to work together towards common goals.
Nikki | Oct 31, 2008
I'm not trying to be harsh, but you are an enabler. As others have said, I really worry about your ability to communicate with each other openly and honestly. That needs to be worked on immediately.
You need to sit her down, and be very blunt and harsh, about the reality of your future together. She has betrayed you in a way, and she needs to see that.
Secondly, stop giving her money! You are married, so what's yours is hers, and vice versa, but I think the best thing for you to do right now, is keep your money separate. She needs to pay off her debt, while you try and keep everything else afloat. BUT, in order for you to take on all that responsibility, she owes it to you to go to a credit counselor, and get some much needed advice. There should be no negotiating on that. She has gotten you in quite a mess, of hers, so that is the least she can do.
After that, it's up to you if you feel like your relationship needs marital counseling.
I hope you can be strong, stand your ground, and that she realizes the severity of what she has done. Good luck!
I had a similar problem with my husband. We had been dating a year and we had just moved in together. I started noticing all the credit card statements coming to him in the mail, and once I got a glance at the monthly payments, I was shocked! I learned he had over $35,000 in credit card debt. He didn't even know how much debt he had until I sat down and added it all up for him. Luckily he didn't have any student loan debt or car payments, so we could just focus on getting rid of this and bringing up his credit score. I talked to some friends and 2 of them had gone through a debt settlement program called DTS and they really liked it, so I checked it out. Go to www.dtsfinancial.com. Basically, DTS contacts the credit card companies on your behalf and tries to settle for a lower amount. They set up a trust account for you at a separate company, and you deposit a monthly payment into that account every month. You stop paying your regular card payments while they are settling for you. After 2 years, we were able to cut my husband's debt in half, from $35,000 to about $17,000. The only thing was that we had to settle as soon as each credit card was ready to settle. But DTS will work with you to make sure you can get those payments in without killing your cash flow. They make their money by charging 25% of the amount they save you from all the settlements. It's a really great option if you are able to make decent sized payments each month. The downside is that you will have to pay taxes on the money that is forgiven by the credit card companies, and we didn't find that out until later, so now we are on a payment plan with the IRS to pay off those taxes. But overall we still saved a ton of money and now he's debt free. I've heard of a LOT of debt settlement companies popping up over the past 2 years that are scams, but this place is legit and I recommend you check them out. You can contact me at my blog above if you have any more questions about it. I'd be happy to help!
I agree with the others that counseling is necessary. There are issues of trust ad communication i this marriage and some other issue from her childhood.
I would encourage you to see if you could call some of her credit cards and work out a payment plan.
I would also look into options regarding selling the house or renting it. I know it can be tough in this market, but with $100k in debt, it could prove vital to surviving.
BRYCE MILLER | Oct 31, 2008
FIRST GO TO LAWYER AND FIND OUT HOW MUCH OF HER DEBT YOU CAN BE HELD RESPONSIBLE FOR. PUT YOUR'S IN ONE PILE. YOU TAKE CHARGE OF PAYING THEM. TAKE HER TO DEBT CONSOLIDATE FIRM WITH EVERYTHING YOU ARE NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR. ANY MONEY SHE HAS LEFT AFTER MEETING HER OBLIGATION GOES TO WARD HELPING PAY YOURS. EITHER A DIVORCE OR COUNCILING.
liv | Oct 31, 2008
I'm sorry you're having that kind of trouble. My bf was surprisingly open about his debt when we started dating, but he is assuming responsibility for it and we are not going into marriage until majority of that is paid off. I do what I can to help, but I actually don't assume any responsibility for his debt either.
Communication is super key. If she is refusing to have talks about it directly with you, then you guys need a mediator. So I agree that you may want to take her to a counselor who can dive into it with a non-blaming mentality and just deal with the numbers as well as how you will work together to solve the problem and fight less.
That's a terrible situation, but that is exactly why there needs to be full disclosure before marriage.
When Mr Chiot's asked me to marry him I told him only if he paid off all fo his credit cards. He buckled down and did it and we married debt free.
You'll never be able to make her change. I think each person has to reach that point of wanted to change before it will happen. You need to make sure you're not paying her debts and enabling her to spend more. If you are you're just making the problem worse. You have to show tough love. If she's not willing to buckle down and pay them off you shouldn't be paying them. It's up to her to be responsible for the choices she's made. Unfortunately many people don't care how their choices affect those they love.
James | Oct 31, 2008
Boy, what a bummer. I really hate for you that she LIED about the amount of credit card debt she had. This is a real burden. If you want to work it out then I think you have to do counseling and go through Dave Ramsey's FPU (not something I normally recomment). If she'll commit to cutting the spending and paying off the debt, being honest and changing her ways, then maybe you'll make it. I hope so, if that's what you want.
Also, I think you should pur a freeze on your records at the credit reporting agencies, to keep her from taking out new credit in your name. hopefully she'll freeze her own, so she won't get more credit. Yes, it could happen.
Good luck!
astral_monkey | Nov 1, 2008
Geez, I couldn't even imagine this type of situation. My partner and I have always been open with each other about our financial situation as we have needed to in order to plan for our future. I don't really understand how you can do even your basic household budgets without knowing the other persons outgoings.
I agree with a lot of the comments here, stop giving her money, and book a session with a counsellor - you will need a mediator as you obviously don't know how to talk to each other about this sort of thing.
Also, she is obviously quite emotional and it's important you don't alienate her if you want to keep your marriage, tell her you NEED her to attend a counselling session to openly discuss your finances because you feel she has betrayed you by lying to you and you are willing to forgive that betrayal if you can be sure than you can trust her to be honest with you in the future. After all marriage is as much about trust and honesty as it is about love.
Speak to your lawyer/accountant, or someone that can advise you on where you stand in regards to her debt, tell her you are doing this. Don't intentionally go behind her back, "open and honest" should be your motto.
Good Luck! I hope it all works out for you.
alissabess | Nov 1, 2008
You are in a tough situation, and I hope everything works out. In the meantime, you need to change your mindset. It is not "her" money and "your" money. If she won't help you, you can still create a joint budget and cut back where you can -- cancel cable, stop eating out, etc. Obviously, be open with her about what you are doing, but don't let her stop you from starting to figure things out.
Also, don't stop making payments! The National Foundation for Credit Counseling has a website, www.debtadvice.org, with information about counseling and debt management plans.
I agree with many of the others when I say that while the finances are absolutely an issue here, there are many other deeper issues as well. How can someone get married without knowing anything about their finances, beliefs, attitudes, etc. You can't change the past now but mistakes can't be repeated in the future.
Marriage is about cleaving together, not breaking apart. Part of learning to create that love that goes much deeper than lust ever could is learning how to work together, trust, etc. While it has been violated it clearly wasn't there even at the start.
While many are mentioning counseling, I'm going to ask you to seriously consider whether this woman is interested in cleaving and creating a life together or if she just desires to have you enable her behavior. There isn't anything about you or her going to marriage counseling that will answer that question. In your heart you already know whether it goes one way or the other. She may have lied but you clearly saw the early warning signs and were blind to them.
So now open your eyes and question yourself. If you like the answers, move forward to help her. If you don't like the answers then fix your mistakes.
As with most folks, I am voting for counseling. Most people spend like that for a reason. If she can deal with those issues, divorce won't be an option.
Although clearly he needs to change some of his attitudes too! I am curious why money management issues never came up before marriage. My husband is a born spender, though he's cleaning up his act and learning about money management.
It's something I had to think long and hard about during our engagement. It's caused fights and it will again.
That's not even getting into the debt he brought with him -- student loans are finally paid off but we amassed some credit card debt, a good chunk of which was for oral surgery/dentist bills.
So while she certainly needs to do some work on her attitude toward money -- why she feels it's okay to spend so much, owe so much, what kind of future she thinks she can have at this rate, what exactly she hopes to achieve by spending that way -- clearly he needs to do some soul searching as well.
Why would you enter into a marriage with someone who was clearly such a spender without pausing to consider the ramifications of the spending? Why would you not insist upon knowing exactly how much debt you were getting when you said "I do"? Why did her rampant spending not set off warning signs in your head?
Marital and individual counseling can help. Acting like a parent by trying to "take away" her credit cards just sets up an ugly situation and a rather creepy setting for future romantic interactions. Plus a whole lot of future resentment.
If she refuses counseling, I would seriously consider ending the marriage. If possible, look into an annulment as you might be able to get out of assuming any debt during that time. A divorce will be messier and hurt your credit rating, most likely.
I would be furious! But as many others suggest, if you sincerly want to try to salvage this relationship, seek marriage counseling. That's pretty much you're only hope. Then you can begin to deal with the financial aspects of the situation. No matter how bleak things look, you will find a solution that works for you both long-term if you both truly want one. Best of luck!
The reader has some hard decisions to make. I would speak to a lawyer about it, a general practice lawyer who knows about a lot of different things to get you started on what you should do to protect your assets while you try to figure out this stuff with your wife.
Bliss | Nov 3, 2008
This is why I'm such a huge believer in "joint" accounts and "joint" budgeting. Before my husband and I got married, we went through a financial seminar and class and discussed and set up our budget before living together and getting married.
Marriage should, in no part of life, involve the word "I" or "mine." We have one account, one budget, and my bills are his bills as well.
The best advice I could give you would be to completely start over with your finances, go see a financial planner who can help you set up a budget and plan. You both need to change your mentality and discuss your financial goals.
Marriages do not need to be broken up over money, get her the help she needs to overcome her spending habits and most of all, continue to show her love and support through everything.
Joint finances only work when both people do it together. It sounds to me like he should be doing as much as possible to separate their finances at this stage until at least the underlying issues can be sorted out.
He really needs to work out which debts he is actually liable for and which he is not. More information is better than less, and there's no point in both of them going bankrupt if they don't have to.
This is probably going to get worse from a relationship point of view before it gets better.
Wow. How did you managed to get yourself into this situation?
I would have gotten out of that marriage asap if that was me. But, if you want to work it out, I would suggest you micro-managing her finances for her from now on. Treat her like she’s her own person on her own income and expenses. No more handouts from you to her and all her debt repayments will have to be from her own income. It sounds like she’s not actually realized how serious the situation is so you have to make sure that she understands what is going on and learn from this experience.
I think it’s a good idea to continue keeping your finances separate for now until you’re both in a better position so if it doesn’t work out, it’s easier to walk out of the marriage (if need be!) without getting into the whole financial mess.
Good luck!
Ishtar | Nov 5, 2008
Marital counselling, by all means. And financial counselling, too.
And remember: there is always a bright side to things. Yes, this is a stumble block -- a mighty big one -- but it'll only make your relationship stronger if you get through it.
You may not be able to change her habits immediately but it's possible to do so bit by small bit.
Good luck and it'd be great to hear how things go in 6 months' time.
Dan Isaacs | Nov 6, 2008
I wouldn't assume she lied. She may not have known. How much of her debt is Student loans? How much is her car? How much is consumer debt?
It's not inconceivable that she, like most people, is just careless about money. It doesn't mean the same thing to her as does to you. I wouldn't be so quick to presume malice where ignorance so frequently a culprit.
That said, she certainly has a problem, and needs to come to terms with that. She's living a life that is not supportable by her income. She probably thinks in terms of a month, not years.
I wouldn't be calling a lawyer. I WOULD make sure you keep your accounts in YOUR name, and not give her access to them. And I would insist she allow you control over her finances until such time as she can demonstrate she can behave like a grown-up.
Kelly | Nov 19, 2008
Is the house in both your names, or your name only? You want to be careful not to let her mess up your credit. My father had excessive credit problems, but my mother had a great credit score because she was never listed on his credit cards or vice-verse. Although they owned their home together, that wasn't a problem since it was first priority. Unfortunately, I don't think you can count on your wife to think that clearly. She's obviously in denial about her situation and is too terrified to do anything about it.
Unfortunately, there is nothing you can do that will make her come to her senses. Believe me when I say that this is going to tear your marriage apart. MAYBE if you tell her (and mean it) that you will leave her if she doesn't get her money problem under control, maybe then she'll start changing. But it's a big maybe.
You may just need to sell the house (if you can) and start over.
I understand that this is a really difficult situation for you and I really feel for you. I can't really imagine how you got into this situation. I wouldn't have even considered buying a house with somebody whose finances I wasn't completely familiar with. This is not just about money; it is trust and faith as well. You need to sit and talk with her and seriously discuss your future together.
Diana | Nov 24, 2008
Although it goes against everything I believe about marriage it sounds like you should keep your finances seperate. If you don't share major priorities it is hard to see how this marriage will work out. That said, when you are trying to get her to agree to a budget be sure you give her some fun money. Don't take everything she enjoys away, just limit it. You might want to punish her, but that isn't healthy and you can't treat her like a child (even if she acts like one). And if you both decide you are really committed to the marriage then consider it 'our' money and 'our' debts. It is 'our' marriage after all.
emmi | Dec 15, 2008
I realize I'm late to this topic, but no one pointed something out... the wife has serious scars from her parents' divorce that will make it impossible to deal with this topic in any manner that an ordinary person would find productive. That has to be dealt with first. You may not feel you have time for that, but everything will be a freakish battle until it is dealt with. Unless you can find a non-emotional, perhaps even indirect, language to discuss it in to even get started, you are going nowhere with this.
If you really love this woman I think you have to do the following: get her into individual counseling, go into survival mode for all expenses (even your own), work out the budget in front of her, so she knows what is happening. Buy scratchy toilet paper and say it was on sale and saved 50 cents that cannot be spared. Try to associate a balanced budget with luxury and an unbalanced one with sacrifice.
Do all this in a manner that makes clear you are doing it because you want everything to work out (avoid all hints of martyrdom), lay your financial books out and hers, figure out together how much of your newly frugal life's saved money can be put toward maintaining the budget. Honestly, for now, just budget for the time it will take for her begin dealing with her own personal issues (but don't say that). 6-12 months probably--that range of time.
Pick a day of the week, every week, to go over both of your expenses for the week. This should be a calm time, force it to be, share a beer, turn on some music, make it team building if at all possible. When you have a good week of low spending it hopefully will bring on a sense of accomplishment, that should make the next session go better, but patience is going to be tough for you. Both parties should be suggesting places the other could have saved (bring lunches to work, no starbucks, etc).
I'll pretend to be an optimist for a moment and assume that the reason she refuses to see the problem is blindness from her experiences as a kid, not that she's really that stupid. Plot out where things will be in a year, 5 years, and long term. Show her how much more cash she will have to spend on silly things if she isn't servicing her debt. Bankruptcy is not going to change her behavior, so long term it solves nothing.
Another thing, if she's really been collecting shoes, she probably has many pairs she's never worn or only worn once. Get her selling on ebay. Nothing works better to get someone's shopping under control than realizing how much effort it is to get rid of the stupid stuff you bought.
Anyway, best of luck to you. I'm about to get married but we've had merged accounts for more than a decade, and your story was a jolt of cold water to imagine otherwise.
latoya | Dec 19, 2008
I'm a little (well, a lot late), but hopefully, you can read this and it will help come up with a solution.
From the way it sounds, your wife is making enough money to pay more than the minimum on her credit cards, if she has money left over to spend on other things. That said, you are going to have to play tough guy for awhile to get this debt paid off. You need to be strict about having her pay her own credit card bills. No more shopping. No more bailouts. You focus on paying the regular bills, she focuses on paying her credit card bills.
Now, this might sounds a little '50s, but I believe it's the man's responsibility to make sure the household stays afloat. That could quite possibly mean taking control of both of your incomes and giving your wife an allowance. Of course, you can work out the details so it doesn't sound like you're treating her like a child.
I would also suggest being firmer on getting some kind of financial counseling. Six months - well four months now - is a very long time to wait for help on such a pressing issue. Perhaps couples counseling (to deal with the deceit and trust issues) or individual therapy is also in order. I agree with the previous poster that your wife may have some emotional ties to her parents' divorce and the role money played in it. If she could get through those issues, it could have a profound impact on your marriage. It's obvious that she's being careless about money because she doesn't want it to ruin your relationship, but doesn't realize it could be having the opposite effect.
Money Beagle | Oct 31, 2008
Wow, this is tough.
First, I think some sort of counseling is in order to get through this as there are issues that go beyond personal finance. Trust has been violated here and when it's to the tune of $85,000 and counting, that is something will remain and fester regardless of if/how the financial piece plays out.
In regards to the financial piece, I'm surprised that more of a joint approach has not been suggested when it comes to the income and outflows. While combining accounts might not be the best idea to protect assets in the event of a possible bankruptcy, it still seems like there's a 'my money' and 'her money' approach to finances. One of the first things my wife and I did when we got married was to sit down and look at our finances from a 'combined' perspective. Even though we combined all of our accounts and everything, there's no reason not to do this regardless of whether the accounts are joint or separate. Perhaps if your wife was able to see the 'overall' picture, versus just certain pieces of the puzzle, this might make more of an impact to her.
Good luck.
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